State of Origin Game 2

Honeysett wrote:

I wouldnt be too concerned, your point was seriously flawed and had holes throughout. You just proved my point for me by yourself. Thats why QLD is the smart state (because we can count past 1). #GregInglisfieldgoal

Honeysett wrote:

This is why as a New South Welshman we hate you. So much arrogance.

I hope Walker and Bird carve up.

Do the NSW selectors pick sides purely off the media hype at the time?

JBird is a decent young bloke coming through the ranks and I could fully understand throwing him into camp for experience.....but selecting him in the team is a totally different kettle of fish.

The only thing I can gather is that he will get a 5 min Dylan Walker type role.
The two issues I have with this approach are:

1. There's probably 20 other blokes in the NRL that I would select if that is the role that is required e.g. Tedesco, Austin or even Carty.
2. I don't think NSW can afford to have a bloke warming the pine for the first 70 mins and then expect them to come on and win the match. Pick to your strengths and select 4 forwards on the bench. Rotate the stat accumulators (fat guts and Woodsie), instead of leaving them on for almost the entire match and marveling at their massive workload.....that never looked like threatening the QLD defence.

Oz Sport Mad wrote:

Do the NSW selectors pick sides purely off the media hype at the time?

JBird is a decent young bloke coming through the ranks and I could fully understand throwing him into camp for experience.....but selecting him in the team is a totally different kettle of fish.

The only thing I can gather is that he will get a 5 min Dylan Walker type role.
The two issues I have with this approach are:

1. There's probably 20 other blokes in the NRL that I would select if that is the role that is required e.g. Tedesco, Austin or even Carty.
2. I don't think NSW can afford to have a bloke warming the pine for the first 70 mins and then expect them to come on and win the match. Pick to your strengths and select 4 forwards on the bench. Rotate the stat accumulators (fat guts and Woodsie), instead of leaving them on for almost the entire match and marveling at their massive workload.....that never looked like threatening the QLD defence.

Have you watched any sharks games over the last two years?
Killed it at 6 last year. Been brilliant in the centres this year. Can cover anywhere in the backs, back row and hooker at a stretch.
There is no better utility for the NSW team than bird.

I too hope they plan on using him similarly to morgan, but I dont think they will.

the ONLY bloke I would like over Bird on the bench is tedesco.

Also, woods played 36mins in game one, gallen (the captain who plays front and back row) played 56.
36 is clearly not "almost the entire match".
56 - is more than half (I know you couldnt work that out so I said it for you) but its clearly not "almost the entire match", you would expect the captain who plays two positions to have a little bit more time than the average front rower. Also, 56 is the exact same amount of time as "stat accumulator" Parker. Get some facts before you post Ozzy, I would say, come on youre better than that, but youre not.

I would like to see Jackson, greg bird and gallen have a few reduced minutes and Klemmer and Fifita having more, with JBird getting at least 20. Giving fifita 24 minutes is just disgusting. I mean, if Papalii can play 40, SURELY Fifita can too who has a heaps bigger engine than him at club level.

Pieman wrote:

Have you watched any sharks games over the last two years?
Killed it at 6 last year. Been brilliant in the centres this year. Can cover anywhere in the backs, back row and hooker at a stretch.
There is no better utility for the NSW team than bird.

I too hope they plan on using him similarly to morgan, but I dont think they will.

the ONLY bloke I would like over Bird on the bench is tedesco.

Also, woods played 36mins in game one, gallen (the captain who plays front and back row) played 56.
36 is clearly not "almost the entire match".
56 - is more than half (I know you couldnt work that out so I said it for you) but its clearly not "almost the entire match", you would expect the captain who plays two positions to have a little bit more time than the average front rower. Also, 56 is the exact same amount of time as "stat accumulator" Parker. Get some facts before you post Ozzy, I would say, come on youre better than that, but youre not.

I would like to see Jackson, greg bird and gallen have a few reduced minutes and Klemmer and Fifita having more, with JBird getting at least 20. Giving fifita 24 minutes is just disgusting. I mean, if Papalii can play 40, SURELY Fifita can too who has a heaps bigger engine than him at club level.

Firstly, yes I have watched a few Sharks games over the last couple and JBird has been good without being impressive enough to warrant a start in SOO.
In fact, I would probably select Luke Lewis ahead of him.

As for the point I raised regarding game time, I didn't think I had to specify that people needed to look back further than 1 game sample size but it was my mistake for not allowing for the lowest common denominator i.e. Pieman.
And why bring Parker into this, his contributions (even over 80mins) provide 100 x the impact of fat guts or Woodsie.

Oz Sport Mad wrote:

Firstly, yes I have watched a few Sharks games over the last couple and JBird has been good without being impressive enough to warrant a start in SOO.
In fact, I would probably select Luke Lewis ahead of him.

As for the point I raised regarding game time, I didn't think I had to specify that people needed to look back further than 1 game sample size but it was my mistake for not allowing for the lowest common denominator i.e. Pieman.
And why bring Parker into this, his contributions (even over 80mins) provide 100 x the impact of fat guts or Woodsie.

So in regards to game 2 of this series minute allocation, you choose to ignore the minute stats from game 1 of the series and refer to the past series? Convenient and makes perfect sense hey! And I mention parker because he is a similar style of player to Gallen, and because they played the exact same minutes, coz ya know, we are talking about minutes.

And totally disagree. As far as a utility goes, there is really no better option for NSW. Not forgetting the fact he is young and is a future fixture in the NSW team and really is only there as a last minute injury replacement so I wouldnt be shocked if he didnt get on at all.

Pieman wrote:

So in regards to game 2 of this series minute allocation, you choose to ignore the minute stats from game 1 of the series and refer to the past series? Convenient and makes perfect sense hey! And I mention parker because he is a similar style of player to Gallen, and because they played the exact same minutes, coz ya know, we are talking about minutes.

And totally disagree. As far as a utility goes, there is really no better option for NSW. Not forgetting the fact he is young and is a future fixture in the NSW team and really is only there as a last minute injury replacement so I wouldnt be shocked if he didnt get on at all.

Not at all, I just made a general statement about not playing fat guts or Woodsie for almost the entire match (which they finally figured out with Woodsie in Game 1 this series) and instead playing more forwards (your strength) to get more impact and roll over the top of us......which NSW has actually been good at but thankfully only for short periods of time.

As for JBird, we clearly rate him differently (and don't get me wrong, you are obviously entitled to be wrong about this one also).
But do you honestly think you blokes can afford to play 16 players with a young bloke up your sleeve in case of injury?

In my opinion JBird has very clearly benefited from not being able to cement a permanent starting position since his debut.
Credit to the young bloke for still being good enough to stay in the team but if someone like Tedesco wasn't good enough to look down a permanent position he would have similarly played all over the shop also.

The point being, just because players have played in multiple positions, doesn't mean other blokes that are better footy players couldn't play in multiple positions also.

So you agree with me on the first point about minutes, great.

I would be surprised if Woods has ever played more than 40mins in an origin game. And gallen put in one of the all time great performances playing big minutes for NSW. I think how he was used in Game 1 was good, I would like to see him play even less than 56mins though to give fifita, klemmer and Jbird more time.

And If you could actually read - you would note that I said there is no better utilityfor NSW than JBird. I also said that I hope they plan to use him similarly to morgan, not just have him on the bench. He can play such a variety of positions similarly to morgan and do it well, so I hope they use him not just have him there 'incase'.

I also said, the only person I would have there over him is Tedesco. I dont think tedesco is a better utility than Jbird, I think he is more dangerous player in a few short stints though. Not quite the utility that Jbird is but a better, more dangerous player. So would I have tedesco in the team over JBird? Yes, 100%.

What do you mean not being able to cement a starting position?
He has been on the bench once in his carrer I think, maybe twice. He started at 6 basically all year last year and has started every game at centre this year.

Its similar to when Fittler came into the league. He was so good that they just fit him into the team.
Played centre, 6, lock etc. After time they discovered Fittlers best position was 6. Its the same with Bird, he is so good that he just has to be in the side- we dont know what his best position is yet because he is so young. He will end up playing 6 though IMO when Maloney moves on/retires in a few years. In game 2, I cant see him getting more than 10mins and only being there to "experience" it for the future. Which is wrong.

Honeysett wrote:

It's starting to become that way.

Flights cost me $600 return which is pretty mental.

I wasn't even in Sydney for 24 hours for Game 1.

At least with Game 3 I'm flying to Melbourne, seeing the Cats play Swans, watch the UFC with mates, then drive up to Sydney Game 3 on Wednesday and Swans V Hawks on the Thursday then jet back for Warriors V Manly over here in Perth. That's a lot of sport over a week.

------------

Morris out, Walker to centre. Bird to the bench for his debut.

I feel this gives the side a lot better balance but the quality drops with our 3rd choice centre marking Inglis.

Flying in for three games of misery!

Pieman wrote:So you agree with me on the first point about minutes, great.

I would be surprised if Woods has ever played more than 40mins in an origin game. And gallen put in one of the all time great performances playing big minutes for NSW. I think how he was used in Game 1 was good, I would like to see him play even less than 56mins though to give fifita, klemmer and Jbird more time.

And If you could actually read - you would note that I said there is no better utilityfor NSW than JBird. I also said that I hope they plan to use him similarly to morgan, not just have him on the bench. He can play such a variety of positions similarly to morgan and do it well, so I hope they use him not just have him there 'incase'.

I also said, the only person I would have there over him is Tedesco. I dont think tedesco is a better utility than Jbird, I think he is more dangerous player in a few short stints though. Not quite the utility that Jbird is but a better, more dangerous player. So would I have tedesco in the team over JBird? Yes, 100%.

What do you mean not being able to cement a starting position?
He has been on the bench once in his carrer I think, maybe twice. He started at 6 basically all year last year and has started every game at centre this year.

Its similar to when Fittler came into the league. He was so good that they just fit him into the team.
Played centre, 6, lock etc. After time they discovered Fittlers best position was 6. Its the same with Bird, he is so good that he just has to be in the side- we dont know what his best position is yet because he is so young. He will end up playing 6 though IMO when Maloney moves on/retires in a few years. In game 2, I cant see him getting more than 10mins and only being there to "experience" it for the future. Which is wrong.

Woods averaged about 55 mins last year - Gallen 65.

You also said, you "wouldn't be shocked if he didn't get on at all"......which is a what I was referring to.

What I was referring to is JBird's utility value is over-rated because he hasn't able to cement a spot as the 5/8 (or surpass Barba for the fullback position).

Oz Sport Mad wrote:

Woods averaged about 55 mins last year - Gallen 65.

You also said, you "wouldn't be shocked if he didn't get on at all"......which is a what I was referring to.

What I was referring to is JBird's utility value is over-rated because he hasn't able to cement a spot as the 5/8 (or surpass Barba for the fullback position).

He is playing in the centres because he is young and is learning still, and because he is a fucking good centre.
Maloney and Barba are established and fucking good players. Why would he play fullback? Just because it was mentioned at the start of the season? I mean he played back row in the 20s, 6 last year, centre this year. It would be dumb as fuck to have him at fullback, a position he has never really played, over barba - who is back in career best form.

At this stage in his career, centre is prob bird's best position anyway - but as I said, we dont know what his best position will be untill he plays a bit longer - and I suspect he will end up playing 6, similarly to Fittler.
Youre saying, his utility value is over stated because he isnt better than Maloney or Barba? Totally disagree - and its the opposite. His utility value is great because he has the ability to play those positions (we know he is a good 6, we dont know about fullback) and be a great centre as well.

I also said that its wrong if Bird isnt actually used well... jeez

Pieman wrote:

He is playing in the centres because he is young and is learning still, and because he is a fucking good centre.
Maloney and Barba are established and fucking good players. Why would he play fullback? Just because it was mentioned at the start of the season? I mean he played back row in the 20s, 6 last year, centre this year. It would be dumb as fuck to have him at fullback, a position he has never really played, over barba - who is back in career best form.

At this stage in his career, centre is prob bird's best position anyway - but as I said, we dont know what his best position will be untill he plays a bit longer - and I suspect he will end up playing 6, similarly to Fittler.
Youre saying, his utility value is over stated because he isnt better than Maloney or Barba? Totally disagree - and its the opposite. His utility value is great because he has the ability to play those positions (we know he is a good 6, we dont know about fullback) and be a great centre as well.

I also said that its wrong if Bird isnt actually used well... jeez

I'm not interested in your misguided excuses.

Good players like Tedesco are able to cement themselves in their preferred positions and not be shifted out to centre to accommodate others.

Oz Sport Mad wrote:

I'm not interested in your misguided excuses.

Good players like Tedesco are able to cement themselves in their preferred positions and not be shifted out to centre to accommodate others.

Um ok....??
Or they wont get picked in the side because they are perceived to not have the utility value of some other players.
Ive said many times, I want tedesco in the side, if not at fullback then on the wing or on the bench.

In saying that, im happy with Bird's selection there because it is a nod to the future and he is a very good player.

By your reasoning, GI isnt that good because he cant cement his preferred position at club level or rep level.

Idiot.

Jack bird is a pretty talented player but i really can't warm to him, comes off as a cvnt of a person to me, whinges when he doesn't get the ball and just shows an arrogance that his ability doesn't yet back up.


i would have picked BJ to replace Jmoz, i'd back BJ defensively over walker and in the form he is in is much more likely to cause havoc on the other side of the ball

leaguegod wrote:Jack bird is a pretty talented player but i really can't warm to him, comes off as a cvnt of a person to me, whinges when he doesn't get the ball and just shows an arrogance that his ability doesn't yet back up.


i would have picked BJ to replace Jmoz, i'd back BJ defensively over walker and in the form he is in is much more likely to cause havoc on the other side of the ball

Don't get me wrong, BJ would be one of those 20-odd players I would comfortably select ahead of Bird - but if we are talking about who is the bigger 'cvnt of a person', BJ would easily surpass Bird.

Not sure why blokes like Pieman are so quick to write this series off and take a massive punt on the future, NSW were only beaten by 2 points in Game 1??

Oz Sport Mad wrote:

Don't get me wrong, BJ would be one of those 20-odd players I would comfortably select ahead of Bird - but if we are talking about who is the bigger 'cvnt of a person', BJ would easily surpass Bird.

Not sure why blokes like Pieman are so quick to write this series off and take a massive punt on the future, NSW were only beaten by 2 points in Game 1??

lol fair call re BJ


Pieman would have had 11 debutants for game 1 (if not more), that his thinking


i give us a chance in game 2 but realistically, a live game in suncorp has been a pretty impossible task for NSW, Since Joey's last game, we have won 1 live game up there (14'). i don't think we have the defensive unit we had back then, nor do we have an in-form jarryd hayne. I go into most games away from suncorp with a good amount of optimism but we just don't handle Suncorp very well.

i still think you have to pick the best 17 regardless of age because if you throw out a bunch of rookies and we get thrashed, the experience it not always gonna be a benefit in the long term

leaguegod wrote:


lol fair call re BJ


Pieman would have had 11 debutants for game 1 (if not more), that his thinking


i give us a chance in game 2 but realistically, a live game in suncorp has been a pretty impossible task for NSW, Since Joey's last game, we have won 1 live game up there (14'). i don't think we have the defensive unit we had back then, nor do we have an in-form jarryd hayne. I go into most games away from suncorp with a good amount of optimism but we just don't handle Suncorp very well.

i still think you have to pick the best 17 regardless of age because if you throw out a bunch of rookies and we get thrashed, the experience it not always gonna be a benefit in the long term

Such a valid point and something I raised when Moylan was being discussed as a potential option when Dugan etc. were still fit (i.e. shifting to wing).

It is especially pertinent given the tendency for NSW rookies to be talked up as saviors and just as quickly dismissed when they don't live up to the unrealistic expectations of the fans/media.

leaguegod wrote:


lol fair call re BJ


Pieman would have had 11 debutants for game 1 (if not more), that his thinking


i give us a chance in game 2 but realistically, a live game in suncorp has been a pretty impossible task for NSW, Since Joey's last game, we have won 1 live game up there (14'). i don't think we have the defensive unit we had back then, nor do we have an in-form jarryd hayne. I go into most games away from suncorp with a good amount of optimism but we just don't handle Suncorp very well.

i still think you have to pick the best 17 regardless of age because if you throw out a bunch of rookies and we get thrashed, the experience it not always gonna be a benefit in the long term

Well, I wouldnt have 11 or more, but I dont see the point in going back to blokes who have not been able to get the job done again and again and again and again like Beau Scott and Hoffman and co. Actually, fuck it, I prob would pick 11.

Also, What constitutes a rookie? Someone who hasnt played SOO before? I mean, these blokes that I want in - eg Wade Graham (160 first grade games), Friz (83 fg games) They arent that young either.  They are experienced players who are very fucking good. Why leave it until they are, say 27 and then we only get 2/3 decent series out of them before they decide to go with another 27 year old who is all of a sudden "ready"?
I mean, how much longer should they have waited before they picking them in the team?

Cam smith was picked as a 21 year old.
Slater as a 22 year old.
Inglis was picked as a 19 year old.
Nate Myles was picked as a 20 year old.
Matt Scott was picked as a 21 year old.
Sam Thiaday was picked as a 21 year old.
Darius Boyd was picked as a 20 year old.
Brent Tate was picked as a 20 year old.
Justin Hodges was picked as a 20 year old.

All from like 2002-2006

Tedesco is 23 now, will be 24 by the time next years series comes around.
You see special qualities in certain players. Not everyone has it, just a select few and IMO, ones for NSW are:

Latrell Mitchell will be 20 for next years series
James Tedesco will be 24 if they decide to pick him next year.
Tom Trbo will be 20 for next years series
Jake Trbo will be 23 when next years series comes around
Dylan walker (75 fg games) is 21 and made his debut
Brye Cartwright - will be 22 by the time next series is on
Bird is a rookie in every sense, prob played 30 first grade games. I think he is a quality player, and think he deserves his spot. And just remember, he wouldnt be there if it wasnt for 1. the injury to dugan and 2. the injury to morris 3. the ridiculous walker selection - so its not like he has been picked ahead of anyone who CLEARLY stands out above him, besides Tedesco.

We have a whole bunch of special young players coming through who should all be picked in the NSW team ASAP.
Picking them at that age and working with them helps turn them into origin greats and IMO thats what NSW need to do to get back to a competitive level.

Im not saying that if you pick them young they automatically become great origin blokes by the time they are 25, but think about this - how many blokes have made their origin debut's at like 26/27 and gone on to have memorable origin careers?

The thing that pisses me off, is a guy like Fifita has only played three origin games or something. He has been one of the best props in the comp for years and He will be 27 at the end of the month. So thats only less than a hanful of series left for him - if they continue to pick him. He should have at least 15 origins under his belt by now, and he could be one of the ones to help the young blokes learn how to play origin, but Nope, he is one of the guys learning how to play it because the NSW selectors have no foresight.

Matt Moylan is fucking 25 now.
Josh Mansour is 26 now and played 1 origin game!
I mean, how much longer should they have waited before they picking "These rookies" in the team?
Ryan James will be 25 by the time next years series is picked too.
Nathan Peats will be 26 by the time next years series comes around.

We have lost 9 out of the last 10 series or what ever it is. What have we got to lose?? QLD did it with their young up and coming stars in smith/slater/inglis and so on, even just their good role players like Tate and Myles - when they were losing series after series, why shouldnt NSW do it? The theory or picking established older blokes is the reason we are in the shit predicament.

Picking them in origin generally makes them better club players. Becoming better club players makes them better Origin players. Its a big cycle.

The reason I am not confident about this series, is because we lost game one and have to play at suncorp for game two. We dont win at suncorp. So no, not confident what so ever. Oh and the fact that QLD have one of the greatest sides put together ever, just that little thing. Not totally writing NSW off, but they have given themselves the hardest task to do.

Im sorry for the long post, but that deserved a rant.

Over the next series or 2 I want the side to look like this.

1. Tedesco
2. Mitchell
3. J. Bird
4. Dugan/Walker
5. T. Trbo
6. Maloney
7. Reynolds
8. Woods
9. See we are fucked now because we have a 26 year old nathan peats debuting at hooker with no one else in sight of being ready for origin besides Ennis
10. Tamou
11. Cordner
12. Graham
13. Klemmer

14. Friz
15. Carty
16. J. Trbo
17. Fifita

As soon as Moylan starts playing 6 at club level (which is looking less and less likely at the panthers) you put him at 6 for the origin team.

I know you will call me a fuckwit for wanting that, but thats what I want, and that is following a QLD blueprint for success that I think will get NSW back to a dominant level.

matt moylan was late to the party with first grade


NSW have picked youngsters, here is a few who have played during this decade (keeping it to those under 23)

Anasta @ 20
Hayne @ 19
Mullen @ 20
Wallace @ 22
Pearce @ 19
Jmoz @ 22
Jennings @ 21
Idris @ 20
Mannah @ 22
Dugan @ 21
Merrin @ 21
Buhrer @ 22
Cordner @ 21
Daniel Tupou @ 22
Woods @ 22
Klemmer @ 21
Walker @ 21
Bird @ 21

see how alot of those guys didn't kick on despite getting the origin experience ??
Hopoate @ 19

leaguegod wrote:matt moylan was late to the party with first grade


NSW have picked youngsters, here is a few who have played during this decade (keeping it to those under 23)

Anasta @ 20
Hayne @ 19
Mullen @ 20
Wallace @ 22
Pearce @ 19
Jmoz @ 22
Jennings @ 21
Idris @ 20
Mannah @ 22
Dugan @ 21
Merrin @ 21
Buhrer @ 22
Cordner @ 21
Daniel Tupou @ 22
Woods @ 22
Klemmer @ 21
Walker @ 21
Bird @ 21

see how alot of those guys didn't kick on despite getting the origin experience ??
Hopoate @ 19

Anasta @ 20 - the most over rated player in the game his entire career, in saying that, he actually went alright in origin. I mean didnt he and brett finch win a game as the halves?
Hayne @ 19 - a great example of my point
Mullen @ 20 - was given 1 game!
Wallace @ 22 - Played bloody 4 games!
Pearce @ 19 - He was one they persisted with that never kicked on
Jmoz @ 22 - has had an excellent origin career
Jennings @ 21 - has had an excellent origin career
Idris @ 20 - could have been anything, his own head let him down on the field not his rep career
Mannah @ 22 - Shouldnt have been there in the first place IMO
Dugan @ 21 - has had a great origin career so far
Merrin @ 21 - surprised they left him out this year, he will play origin again
Buhrer @ 22 - shouldnt have ever been picked in the first place
Cordner @ 21 - is an excellent player that keeps getting hurt - keep him
Daniel Tupou @ 22 - Is in career worst form, but so is his whole team. Losing that entire side of the field that was helping him score is what has turned his form to shit
Woods @ 22 - is building to have a good rep career - keep him
Klemmer @ 21 - is brilliant - keep him
Walker @ 21 - just starting his origin career
Bird @ 21 - just starting his origin career
Hoppa - is in career best form playing fullback for the dogs

Some of those guys you have mentioned have gone on to have pretty great origin careers against the best team ever made - some should never have been there in the first place - some werent given much of a chance to perform.

NSW biggest problem is their non pick and stick policy - which is hard to do when you keep losing.

A large portion of my previous post was directed towards the special players that are coming into grade now - the Mitchells, Trbo's, tedescos. Why wait until they are 25 before picking them? Just fucking pick them now and let them develop playing origin. then by the time they are 25 they have 15 origins under their belts.

(As I said in the previous post, being picked doesnt automatically mean they will kick on, but there is a fucking good chance they will, especially those special talents. Not blokes like Wolfman or Joel Monaghan, who were just good players not special ones)