NRL Grand Final 2nd October 2016 Match Thread

Oz Sport Mad wrote:

I never said it doesn't make a better team, I said it doesn't necessarily make a better team.

You also said

"drug taking will generally always make someone a better player."

Not saying that generally always omitting the word "necessarily" makes a difference but it always generally does.

No Worries wrote:

You also said

"drug taking will generally always make someone a better player."

Not saying that generally always omitting the word "necessarily" makes a difference but it always generally does.

Yeah but when I am generally talking about drug cheats I am not necessarily talking about salary cap cheating.....in fact I wasn't at all.

Now I'm not saying you are necessarily an idiot for getting the two point confused..but I am saying that you generally always are.

Oz Sport Mad wrote:

Of course drug cheating is worse.

Just because a player is paid more doesn't mean they are a better player, whereas performance enhancing drug taking will generally always make someone a better player.

It's nominal $ values and the best team on paper (e.g. the Warriors this season) still has to go out and win the comp.

Are you alright lad ?

If the cap is squeezed and contorted in such a way, it can result in one or two or more certain players being at a club as opposed to not. A huge difference.

Most importantly, i will be attending the 'drug/cash' fest that is the grand final on sunday. It's going to feel like a big, crack smoking orgy with all the drug/cash innuendo's flying around.

Revraiser wrote:

Are you alright lad ?

If the cap is squeezed and contorted in such a way, it can result in one or two or more certain players being at a club as opposed to not. A huge difference.

The Storm and Bulldogs showed what can happen with massive Salary Cap rorts. The Eels and Warriors on the other hand...

Oz Sport Mad wrote:

Of course drug cheating is worse.

Just because a player is paid more doesn't mean they are a better player, whereas performance enhancing drug taking will generally always make someone a better player.

It's nominal $ values and the best team on paper (e.g. the Warriors this season) still has to go out and win the comp.

Well..... systemic cap rorting is more of a reflection of the terrible people running the club and the players willingness to accept cheating (they can claim they didnt know all they want, I will never believe that)

Drug cheating is a reflection of the terrible people playing for the club and 1 doctor. (They can claim that they didnt know it was illegal all they want, I will never believe that)

What is worse? How long is a piece of string?

Pieman wrote:

Well..... systemic cap rorting is more of a reflection of the terrible people running the club and the players willingness to accept cheating (they can claim they didnt know all they want, I will never believe that)

Drug cheating is a reflection of the terrible people playing for the club and 1 doctor. (They can claim that they didnt know it was illegal all they want, I will never believe that)

What is worse? How long is a piece of string?

Here here.

The price of a massive mis-leading PR campaign to ensure the waters are muddied will, of course, lead to endless speculation about "I thought it was a vitamin shot", or "I don't know where the boat come from. From this, the said player gets to emerge back into the playing arena without the player or the team really ever having been 100% forth coming.

That element of "they got away with something" is what drives the resentment that seems to last longer these days. And winning whilst doing it amplifies the derision. Melbourne will cop it both barrels until their rep stars of that side retire, and will be raised for long after that. If Cronulla win on the weekend, you can bet the house there will be a backlash from the public about the drugs.

The drugs were a non story, everyone's forgotten about it, it's water under the bridge. It was only that Dip mentioned they would have only been back 2 months ago that I thought wow cool stat, wonder if anyone will mention it. And they haven't.
The drugs story is a story of 1 guy being deceitful and trying to further his own career.
The salary cap scandal is the story of deceit and systematic rorting by players and officials over the course of a years.
With the amount of support staff advising these players on when to train, at what intensity, what to eat, on what days, to take these supplements. I can understand that they put their trust in the staff and not know what is in the syringe.
I can't understand a player signing 2 contracts for different amounts of money for the same period of time and thinking that it's above board.

Pieman wrote:

Well..... systemic cap rorting is more of a reflection of the terrible people running the club and the players willingness to accept cheating (they can claim they didnt know all they want, I will never believe that)

Drug cheating is a reflection of the terrible people playing for the club and 1 doctor. (They can claim that they didnt know it was illegal all they want, I will never believe that)

What is worse? How long is a piece of string?

This sums it up and please understand that I wasn't implying either team are by any means cleanskins, like say....oh I don't know, the Broncos.

I'm probably saying the Sharks piece of string is a little longer because I hate Gallen so much!

No doubt Gallen's tampon string is a little longer.

dasherhalo wrote:

Here here.

The price of a massive mis-leading PR campaign to ensure the waters are muddied will, of course, lead to endless speculation about "I thought it was a vitamin shot", or "I don't know where the boat come from. From this, the said player gets to emerge back into the playing arena without the player or the team really ever having been 100% forth coming.

That element of "they got away with something" is what drives the resentment that seems to last longer these days. And winning whilst doing it amplifies the derision. Melbourne will cop it both barrels until their rep stars of that side retire, and will be raised for long after that. If Cronulla win on the weekend, you can bet the house there will be a backlash from the public about the drugs.

Just on this.

How does this actually work?

I mean, if a salary cap cheating team was made to tear up all their contracts but then they were then able to re-sign the exact same team. Then surely, given the cheating was completed in the past (and assuming they were punished for any past success)....shouldn't any ongoing success therefore be all above board with little or no help from their past cheating?

Any future success in relation to drug cheating though, will always be questionable IMO because of the unknown benefit they got from taking the short-cut.

It's why some of the Olympians insist on life bans for drug cheats.

I think OSM that they get the benefit of not losing much quality. Storm have a perfect system in place where they only really need 3 or 4 great players and the rest can be average players that Bellamy gets the best out of. The NRL should have said you cannot sign Smith, GI, Slater and Cronk. Get rid of the highest paid players and those probably involved in the rort. From there they can build a club from the ground up like they should have had to.

From there the effects spread to the benefit of other teams. Other clubs get better for having one of these 4 guys. Let's not forget the real victims here. NSW. Due to the Storms salary cap cheating they were able to hold onto the big 4 then big 3 for so long which build up game winning combinations.

No Worries wrote:The drugs were a non story, everyone's forgotten about it, it's water under the bridge. It was only that Dip mentioned they would have only been back 2 months ago that I thought wow cool stat, wonder if anyone will mention it. And they haven't.
The drugs story is a story of 1 guy being deceitful and trying to further his own career.
The salary cap scandal is the story of deceit and systematic rorting by players and officials over the course of a years.
With the amount of support staff advising these players on when to train, at what intensity, what to eat, on what days, to take these supplements. I can understand that they put their trust in the staff and not know what is in the syringe.
I can't understand a player signing 2 contracts for different amounts of money for the same period of time and thinking that it's above board.

All I'm saying is neither "crime" sits well with me, and you insisting it's a non-story isn't going to change that.

Oz Sport Mad wrote:

Just on this.

How does this actually work?

I mean, if a salary cap cheating team was made to tear up all their contracts but then they were then able to re-sign the exact same team. Then surely, given the cheating was completed in the past (and assuming they were punished for any past success)....shouldn't any ongoing success therefore be all above board with little or no help from their past cheating?

Any future success in relation to drug cheating though, will always be questionable IMO because of the unknown benefit they got from taking the short-cut.

It's why some of the Olympians insist on life bans for drug cheats.

I'm really only commenting on the fan-base perception, as I see it. Not the law, or bans, or anything policy related.

Hell, I don't even care that much personally, but I guarantee there are those that do - and apart from the obvious trolls, some have legitimate grievances, and aren't poster-boys for the black or white arguments.

Oz Sport Mad wrote:

Just on this.

How does this actually work?

I mean, if a salary cap cheating team was made to tear up all their contracts but then they were then able to re-sign the exact same team. Then surely, given the cheating was completed in the past (and assuming they were punished for any past success)....shouldn't any ongoing success therefore be all above board with little or no help from their past cheating?

Any future success in relation to drug cheating though, will always be questionable IMO because of the unknown benefit they got from taking the short-cut.

It's why some of the Olympians insist on life bans for drug cheats.

Cap rorting can have the same sort of effect tho.
They were allowed to build this team/culture/system illegally - getting the leg up over everyone else. It allowed them to put together these superstars and let them develop together which wouldnt have been possible if they werent cheating.
They then were allowed to keep these superstars, they were allowed to shed the non superstars (bar GI) to get under the cap and keep slater smith and cronk - which is what rubs people the wrong way. They still benefit from the cap rorting.
So using your words, they benefited from taking the short cut, and still do.

With drug cheating, take roid munching for an example. When someone is a nobody, they can take all the roids they want and it helps them train harder, recover faster, build muscle and strength faster, gives them more aggression etc etc. As soon as they get signed they can stop taking the roids, they may lose a small bit of their performance but they will always have that edge because the roids helped them get to a certain size/strength etc, it helped them get into a position that they wouldnt have got to naturally even though they dont take them any more.
Benefiting from taking the short cut.

So its very similar when you look at it form those points of view - cheating helps u get somewhere you shouldnt.

On @honeysett 's point, as far as NSW v QLD goes, he is right. If these 3/4 guys were not allowed to develop together illegally, who knows what would have happened. Not to mention the fact that the QLD lied and cheated to get GI eligible, he is 100% not eligible to play for QLD and its amazing that since they found out about the lying to get him into the QLD side - they have let him play.

Pieman wrote:

Cap rorting can have the same sort of effect tho.
They were allowed to build this team/culture/system illegally - getting the leg up over everyone else. It allowed them to put together these superstars and let them develop together which wouldnt have been possible if they werent cheating.
They then were allowed to keep these superstars, they were allowed to shed the non superstars (bar GI) to get under the cap and keep slater smith and cronk - which is what rubs people the wrong way. They still benefit from the cap rorting.
So using your words, they benefited from taking the short cut, and still do.

With drug cheating, take roid munching for an example. When someone is a nobody, they can take all the roids they want and it helps them train harder, recover faster, build muscle and strength faster, gives them more aggression etc etc. As soon as they get signed they can stop taking the roids, they may lose a small bit of their performance but they will always have that edge because the roids helped them get to a certain size/strength etc, it helped them get into a position that they wouldnt have got to naturally even though they dont take them any more.
Benefiting from taking the short cut.

So its very similar when you look at it form those points of view - cheating helps u get somewhere you shouldnt.

On @honeysett 's point, as far as NSW v QLD goes, he is right. If these 3/4 guys were not allowed to develop together illegally, who knows what would have happened. Not to mention the fact that the QLD lied and cheated to get GI eligible, he is 100% not eligible to play for QLD and its amazing that since they found out about the lying to get him into the QLD side - they have let him play.

Disagree regarding the effect on ongoing team/culture/system.

It is immeasurable, negligible (in terms of having 4 guns as opposed to 3) and never a level playing field in the first place (nor should it be).

As for Honeysett and your trolling, you both know full well that if these combo's didn't develop, another gun QLD combo would have stepped in and gelled/developed anyway because we are generally better blokes and far more likable than NSWelshman.

Oz Sport Mad wrote:

Disagree regarding the effect on ongoing team/culture/system.

It is immeasurable, negligible (in terms of having 4 guns as opposed to 3) and never a level playing field in the first place (nor should it be).

As for Honeysett and your trolling, you both know full well that if these combo's didn't develop, another gun QLD combo would have stepped in and gelled/developed anyway because we are generally better blokes and far more likable than NSWelshman.

You very well could be right, mate. Who's to say they weren't just as good, however IMO they would not have won all of those tight games and there's a couple series there to NSW. But it's all heresay anyway - not really concerned with it.

The thing that shits me though is Storm players saying "we count those as grand final wins because we won those games" of course you won, you cheated to win. Muppets. Hope they look at their tattoos and realise what a mistake it was.

Regardless, let's talk about the GF.

I said at the start of the Cowboys V Storm. Half right doesn't cut it. I still think the Storm take it out but I hope I'm wrong. Then again I don't want Buzz Rothfield to have any joy in his life, so I hope no one wins. Rocky 3 finish would be fantastic.

On another note, won't be at the AFL GF as plans fell through however cheer cheer the red and the white!

Honeysett wrote:Regardless, let's talk about the GF.

I said at the start of the Cowboys V Storm. Half right doesn't cut it. I still think the Storm take it out but I hope I'm wrong. Then again I don't want Buzz Rothfield to have any joy in his life, so I hope no one wins. Rocky 3 finish would be fantastic.

On another note, won't be at the AFL GF as plans fell through however cheer cheer the red and the white!

+1 to your first post (the 2nd para that is, obviously not the first bit about a couple of series to NSW).

Cheated, punished (GF's removed), move on.
Same with Cronulla to be honest.

I'm predicting this will be one of the most predictable GF's in history:

Tip: Melbourne by 2
CC: Cronk
FTS: Vuni

As for the AFL, the Footscray fairytale has been impressive and I'm a big fan of what Beveridge is doing there.....but I think class may just overcome all of that and see the Swans give them a deadset hiding.

Sharks 22-18 with Bird scoring near the death.